Nov. 13, 2010
Austerity at our doors. To arms. To arms.
This is an example of selective propaganda.
Who controlled congress between 2000-2006 when the template for all of this really rolled off the debt cliff?
Wars? Tax Cuts? Undoing the screwed up system is lot harder then had they not screwed it up in the first place... we can't even get then to agree to a measly 3% tax increase on marginal rates OVER 250K which means, for integrity challenged partisans, that 100% of everyone still keeps their tax cuts for income under 250K.
Some history... how many republicans actually voted for the responsible budget that gave us the Clinton years? I forget but it was none or almost none.
I was present during those times and all we heard was that if Clinton got his budget passed, including some tax hikes, that the economy would crash. It did the opposite and for years republicans such as Rush and Hannity would pretend the success of those policies were corrupt math and number manipulation by Clinton's people.
How about all those right wingers calling Clinton a pacifist because he closed a bunch of wasteful irrelevant military bases saving us a fortune?
Neither party has the answers because human nature itself is flawed as evidenced by your post. Too much left/right, too much of a focus on one team or the other instead of the integrity of the game itself causes all humans to lose their bearings as the right did when they had total control circa 2000-2006.
As for me I see the necessary truth of the input of all opinions as long as they are presented in a good faith debate. That's your problem, you don't know the difference between fighting with honor, truly seeking the truth, or winning at any cost, even to the detriment of your country or cause in the long run.
For example, as leftist as I may sound at times let's honestly consider 911 and the wars that followed. It's easy to judge knowing the missteps in the strategy but in real time we were attacked and life is a contact sport, not enough of us live in a spiritual place and therefore do not respond to reason so no matter what I guarantee you the next group of folks thinking of blowing something up has to pause at what we will do next. They took out 2 buildings, we took out two countries. Right or wrong that kind of power and willingness to use it is a game changer, especially when your own people, no matter how sympathetic they are to your cause, come to realize that the price for your actions are simply too high. There has to be another way. Look what happened to Japans attitude at the end of WW2, now where all buddies. Go figure... The point isn't to defend the wars, none of us are privy to the inside info that Bush had to deal with and that Obama now deals with but obviously there's something going on for a left of center democrat to stick with what is essentially the same game plan as the previous administration. Politically Obama can't talk the game that a republican can but that's all for show, on both sides. when it comes to action they're unified.
This left right ideological stuff is great for brainstorming but it's not worth taking too serious at the end of the day. Reagan famously used to have a drink with his political enemy, Tip O'Neil. They both got it. We are two sides of the same life force and it takes the good intentions of both to function healthily.
Now, in 2010, the problem is the the right doesn't get it, they want to go to war with their other half. that's the problem right now and if I seem to slant left it's not so much purity but because one side isn't really considering what's best for the nation, it's tactics are similar to Saddam Husein after the first gulf war, just burn it all down if we lose... I don't think that's a left/right issue, that's a mental psychological issue of instability which happens in human history... Hitler, Pol Pot (sp?), Africa the last 20 years, etc."
Who controlled congress between 2000-2006 when the template for all of this really rolled off the debt cliff?
Wars? Tax Cuts? Undoing the screwed up system is lot harder then had they not screwed it up in the first place... we can't even get then to agree to a measly 3% tax increase on marginal rates OVER 250K which means, for integrity challenged partisans, that 100% of everyone still keeps their tax cuts for income under 250K.
Some history... how many republicans actually voted for the responsible budget that gave us the Clinton years? I forget but it was none or almost none.
I was present during those times and all we heard was that if Clinton got his budget passed, including some tax hikes, that the economy would crash. It did the opposite and for years republicans such as Rush and Hannity would pretend the success of those policies were corrupt math and number manipulation by Clinton's people.
How about all those right wingers calling Clinton a pacifist because he closed a bunch of wasteful irrelevant military bases saving us a fortune?
Neither party has the answers because human nature itself is flawed as evidenced by your post. Too much left/right, too much of a focus on one team or the other instead of the integrity of the game itself causes all humans to lose their bearings as the right did when they had total control circa 2000-2006.
As for me I see the necessary truth of the input of all opinions as long as they are presented in a good faith debate. That's your problem, you don't know the difference between fighting with honor, truly seeking the truth, or winning at any cost, even to the detriment of your country or cause in the long run.
For example, as leftist as I may sound at times let's honestly consider 911 and the wars that followed. It's easy to judge knowing the missteps in the strategy but in real time we were attacked and life is a contact sport, not enough of us live in a spiritual place and therefore do not respond to reason so no matter what I guarantee you the next group of folks thinking of blowing something up has to pause at what we will do next. They took out 2 buildings, we took out two countries. Right or wrong that kind of power and willingness to use it is a game changer, especially when your own people, no matter how sympathetic they are to your cause, come to realize that the price for your actions are simply too high. There has to be another way. Look what happened to Japans attitude at the end of WW2, now where all buddies. Go figure... The point isn't to defend the wars, none of us are privy to the inside info that Bush had to deal with and that Obama now deals with but obviously there's something going on for a left of center democrat to stick with what is essentially the same game plan as the previous administration. Politically Obama can't talk the game that a republican can but that's all for show, on both sides. when it comes to action they're unified.
This left right ideological stuff is great for brainstorming but it's not worth taking too serious at the end of the day. Reagan famously used to have a drink with his political enemy, Tip O'Neil. They both got it. We are two sides of the same life force and it takes the good intentions of both to function healthily.
Now, in 2010, the problem is the the right doesn't get it, they want to go to war with their other half. that's the problem right now and if I seem to slant left it's not so much purity but because one side isn't really considering what's best for the nation, it's tactics are similar to Saddam Husein after the first gulf war, just burn it all down if we lose... I don't think that's a left/right issue, that's a mental psychological issue of instability which happens in human history... Hitler, Pol Pot (sp?), Africa the last 20 years, etc."
50 days ago by Scott8500 :
What???? There is no transfer of wealth to the rich from keeping tax rates the same. That money was "originally" earned by THEM. Not the goverment & greedy liberal pigs always trying to steal it. As usual, liberals have everything backwards.
50 days ago
It's an absurd idea that the wealthy EARN it. In the natural world that is a ridiculous concept. The idea that 1% of the nation could EARN 24% of all GDP growth and income is a purely governmental manufactured inefficiency. That’s like saying 1% of all tigers in the jungle actually kill 24% of all the food that feeds all the tigers and the other tigers are out of luck, go eat plants or something!!!
Sure, maybe Bill Gates earned it but most of these guys haven't contributed anything close to something that qualifies as Earning It!
1% of this nation cannot earn 24% of all income. No one can "earns" that much, period. My father’s heart surgeon works harder than a Wall Street banker and isn’t paid a billion dollars. Let’s stop pretending that working hard and making a billion dollars are connected, very rarely are they if, given as a base line, almost everybody works hard anyways. Most people work pretty hard, if they worked any harder they'd kill themselves, lose their families and have a nervous breakdown. But their only making 45K a year...
Government prints, owns and controls the money in the first place. The only enlightened point of view is to look ahead, not behind, and realize that whether a right wing communist/dictatorship style of government of a small elite own everything or a bunch of transnational billionaires eventually own everything the result for most of humanity will be the same.
Just as 1% of whales in the ocean could never lay claim to 24% of all the food we should see how that applies to our cultural and economic organizing. Once again, I’m not suggesting we punish anyone, just atop with all this beating up of those who do live off the government, whether you get it or not keeping them pacified is necessary to balance the system out so that the rich can be secure and rich in a free world. Just because your brain is among the most vital organs to shaping a life and indeed living doesn’t mean it’s wise to complain about the relatively small amount of resources your foot uses. And if you decide to withhold the basics from your foot you life is going to be a lot worse and you’ll eventually die from the unintended consequences of neglecting the needs of your foot either through immobilization, infection, etc.
Think about that you all and stop all this picking on the poor, just live your lives and get rich. Or not. But leave the poor, lazy, whatever you consider them to be alone. You’ll be better off. And not to offend any of you but it’s a more spiritual path to take, just read any or all of Jesus’ teaching. It was all about forgiveness and not judging and taking care of all. Apply that to economics because those teachings are there for YOUR OWN GOOD as much as the poor persons. Jesus, the Buddha and many spiritual teachers understood that. You should too.
Sure, maybe Bill Gates earned it but most of these guys haven't contributed anything close to something that qualifies as Earning It!
1% of this nation cannot earn 24% of all income. No one can "earns" that much, period. My father’s heart surgeon works harder than a Wall Street banker and isn’t paid a billion dollars. Let’s stop pretending that working hard and making a billion dollars are connected, very rarely are they if, given as a base line, almost everybody works hard anyways. Most people work pretty hard, if they worked any harder they'd kill themselves, lose their families and have a nervous breakdown. But their only making 45K a year...
Government prints, owns and controls the money in the first place. The only enlightened point of view is to look ahead, not behind, and realize that whether a right wing communist/dictatorship style of government of a small elite own everything or a bunch of transnational billionaires eventually own everything the result for most of humanity will be the same.
Just as 1% of whales in the ocean could never lay claim to 24% of all the food we should see how that applies to our cultural and economic organizing. Once again, I’m not suggesting we punish anyone, just atop with all this beating up of those who do live off the government, whether you get it or not keeping them pacified is necessary to balance the system out so that the rich can be secure and rich in a free world. Just because your brain is among the most vital organs to shaping a life and indeed living doesn’t mean it’s wise to complain about the relatively small amount of resources your foot uses. And if you decide to withhold the basics from your foot you life is going to be a lot worse and you’ll eventually die from the unintended consequences of neglecting the needs of your foot either through immobilization, infection, etc.
Think about that you all and stop all this picking on the poor, just live your lives and get rich. Or not. But leave the poor, lazy, whatever you consider them to be alone. You’ll be better off. And not to offend any of you but it’s a more spiritual path to take, just read any or all of Jesus’ teaching. It was all about forgiveness and not judging and taking care of all. Apply that to economics because those teachings are there for YOUR OWN GOOD as much as the poor persons. Jesus, the Buddha and many spiritual teachers understood that. You should too.
50 days ago by MrMutt :
Considering the rich collect zero in government benefits like welfare and public assistance yet pay orders of magnitude more in taxes than those at the bottom in both absolute and as a percentage of income, your statement that holding taxes flat "transfers wealth to the upper income" is patently false.
Its sad that so many people have no idea how economics works, and live in a fantasy world in where government just "has" money, and taxes shouldn't apply to them and have no effect on spending habbits. You just think you can take more in taxes from everyone at it will have no impact on investment, spending, etc. I wish I was as comfortable living in ignorance as you lot.
Its sad that so many people have no idea how economics works, and live in a fantasy world in where government just "has" money, and taxes shouldn't apply to them and have no effect on spending habbits. You just think you can take more in taxes from everyone at it will have no impact on investment, spending, etc. I wish I was as comfortable living in ignorance as you lot.
50 days ago
Wow, aren’t you the uninformed one… Look, I’m not objecting to the system, that’s like objecting to an Earthquake or some other natural phenomenon of life and its energy expression. I doubt you even comprehend that but moving forward…
What planet are you on, the rich and the corporations are the hugest welfare recipients, by far. Last year Exxon or one of the big oil companies received a check of over 10 million due to fix in the tax code. They paid ZERO taxes but got a refund, do you get that. That covers a lot of food stamps my friend.
You need to seriously stop getting your info from right wing think tanks and their operatives such as Hannity. Read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Free-Lunch-Wealthiest-Themselves-Government/dp/1591841917
I’m not going to reeducate you here but if you’re interested in truth read the book. Keep in mind also that Social Security tax isn’t included in those figure that the poor don’t pay taxes, EVERYONE does. Don’t allow an accounting game to create pity for the wealthy. 1% of this nation took home 24% of all GDP and income last year and paid an average rate of 15%. If the poor don’t pay enough in taxes according to so many of you it might behoove to realize why; they aren’t making the real money. And since this is the richest nation on Earth that’s saying a lot if you can do the math and conceptualize what it translates to.
Someone making 35K or less a year, especially with a family, couldn’t survive if their taxes were any higher unless they lived with mommy & daddy.
For the record I’m not suggesting the poor pay more or get their benefits cut or that the wealthy should be demonized. I think we’re knocking on the door of a new reality; if 20% of the population working full can produce over 100% of what the world needs and wants due to exponentially increased productivity then the answers is in a new paradigm.
Pay people to do something else besides working (welfare) or realize that the work week needs to be 20 hrs a week so that it takes twice as many people to do the same things. In the future this will have to happen, you can’t have long term unemployment going to 20%, 30%, 40% while others are working 50plus hours a week without revolution or a radical new value system regarding what life is about & what we should do with our time on Earth since the natural world, except for disease, has largely been conquered already.
Pretending life is still a struggle where people have to work from dawn to dusk is a world that no longer exists except for those who wish to keep it that way for political or financial exploitation and control.
Regarding austerity, get real. Nobody’s going to substantially cut anything. In 1994 the republicans ran on the same propaganda and did the opposite when they achieved full control of the federal government in 2000. They like buying off the people every bit as much as the most liberal democratic socialist, the only difference is that right wingers in charge like to implant a bug in your software for social purposes of keeping you all self controlled; they attach a moral judgment of each other into the mix so that you self censor against your own best interests. Therefore you support politician who verbally deny overt aid to the most needy while thinking very little of giving hundreds of billions out in sweet government contracts where the taxpayer is billed $1,000 for a washer and a truck driver in Iraq makes $200K a year while the soldier on the battlefield makes $24K a year. All in the name of privatization... for the connected that is.
The rank and file right wing American is pathetically naïve to the Frank Luntz style NLP mental programing used on you for the last 15 years. Every term you use, such as entitlement, socialist, death panels (do you really think Sarah made that up herself?), global warming hoax, redistribution, etc. has been field tested by right wing think tanks with guinea pigs while Hannity and Rush have simultaneously used their platform to define the terms into a negative that you will fight against even though you have no idea what they really mean or even the actual data that makes many of them something most reasonable people would support if they understood them in context of the situation they apply to.
This has all been done to you in an effort to create the left/right/liberal/conservative world you live in, one that really doesn't exist outside of political circles where it's all about controlling money and resources.
What planet are you on, the rich and the corporations are the hugest welfare recipients, by far. Last year Exxon or one of the big oil companies received a check of over 10 million due to fix in the tax code. They paid ZERO taxes but got a refund, do you get that. That covers a lot of food stamps my friend.
You need to seriously stop getting your info from right wing think tanks and their operatives such as Hannity. Read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Free-Lunch-Wealthiest-Themselves-Government/dp/1591841917
I’m not going to reeducate you here but if you’re interested in truth read the book. Keep in mind also that Social Security tax isn’t included in those figure that the poor don’t pay taxes, EVERYONE does. Don’t allow an accounting game to create pity for the wealthy. 1% of this nation took home 24% of all GDP and income last year and paid an average rate of 15%. If the poor don’t pay enough in taxes according to so many of you it might behoove to realize why; they aren’t making the real money. And since this is the richest nation on Earth that’s saying a lot if you can do the math and conceptualize what it translates to.
Someone making 35K or less a year, especially with a family, couldn’t survive if their taxes were any higher unless they lived with mommy & daddy.
For the record I’m not suggesting the poor pay more or get their benefits cut or that the wealthy should be demonized. I think we’re knocking on the door of a new reality; if 20% of the population working full can produce over 100% of what the world needs and wants due to exponentially increased productivity then the answers is in a new paradigm.
Pay people to do something else besides working (welfare) or realize that the work week needs to be 20 hrs a week so that it takes twice as many people to do the same things. In the future this will have to happen, you can’t have long term unemployment going to 20%, 30%, 40% while others are working 50plus hours a week without revolution or a radical new value system regarding what life is about & what we should do with our time on Earth since the natural world, except for disease, has largely been conquered already.
Pretending life is still a struggle where people have to work from dawn to dusk is a world that no longer exists except for those who wish to keep it that way for political or financial exploitation and control.
Regarding austerity, get real. Nobody’s going to substantially cut anything. In 1994 the republicans ran on the same propaganda and did the opposite when they achieved full control of the federal government in 2000. They like buying off the people every bit as much as the most liberal democratic socialist, the only difference is that right wingers in charge like to implant a bug in your software for social purposes of keeping you all self controlled; they attach a moral judgment of each other into the mix so that you self censor against your own best interests. Therefore you support politician who verbally deny overt aid to the most needy while thinking very little of giving hundreds of billions out in sweet government contracts where the taxpayer is billed $1,000 for a washer and a truck driver in Iraq makes $200K a year while the soldier on the battlefield makes $24K a year. All in the name of privatization... for the connected that is.
The rank and file right wing American is pathetically naïve to the Frank Luntz style NLP mental programing used on you for the last 15 years. Every term you use, such as entitlement, socialist, death panels (do you really think Sarah made that up herself?), global warming hoax, redistribution, etc. has been field tested by right wing think tanks with guinea pigs while Hannity and Rush have simultaneously used their platform to define the terms into a negative that you will fight against even though you have no idea what they really mean or even the actual data that makes many of them something most reasonable people would support if they understood them in context of the situation they apply to.
This has all been done to you in an effort to create the left/right/liberal/conservative world you live in, one that really doesn't exist outside of political circles where it's all about controlling money and resources.
@@@@@@@@@@@
Do any of us believe that the human being's DNA has been altered and men no longer are corrupted by personal greed, temptation, ego, sociopatholgy, etc.
The high tax rate on the wealthy, such as we had in the 50's, was in effect a salary cap. Right now we need to revamp the tax brackets and raise the top level to maybe 5-10 million and slap a 90% tax on all income ABOVE that.
Here's why our lack of education in the humanities has left many of you on the right with a blind spot that is larger than your actual area of vision.
Morality, ethics, reality, etc..... If a man's salary is effectively capped @ 5 million a year he will be free to make decisions based on factors other than personal greed or his delusional ego's need to make the cover of a business magazine because he is a super CEO and increased profits more than the next guy.
If a mortal human CEO is running a profitable sustainable business making 8% a year while employing thousands of Americans but is now given the chance to personally make 100 million instead of the tax capped salary of 5 million if he juices the stock and ups profit levels to 20% he will do so.
We can't go industry to industry setting CEO pay but we can use our knowledge of human emotion, history (slavery from Egypt to the USA), science to tell us what allocations are possible to set up a tax policy that gives people an incentive to make better choices, choices that are free from personal greed and temptation. Don't worry about talent leaving; the world is full of people who will work hard for only 5 million, heck most people work just as hard for 50K a year...
Digressing, if 20K Americans lose their jobs so what because that is how the competitive greedy system is set up.
If his salary is capped this CEO no longer has the personal incentive to ship jobs out of the country. It's like robbing a bank, if you're gonna make a few thousand most would take a pass but if the payoff was in the millions many otherwise decent people would be tempted. Then, if we make the maximum penalty for bank robbing 15 days in jail you'll compound the problem because there is now almost no risk.
This is how the modern CEO and business culture functions. They can risk the entire company (other people’s money) and if the bet pays off they walk away with most of the benefit and if the bet fails they walk away with everything they've made up until that point and pay no price socially or legally for what they did.
Right wingers have been propagandized to believe that outsourcing is a matter of being competitive or surviving when in reality it's little more than profit maximizing so that company A can compete with company B in a world that has little to do with reality or society for most of the 6 billion plus on Earth. We cannot sacrifice order and happiness so that a few people can play financial games with the resources of the Earth that are all of ours.
The reality is that most of these companies would be profitable on our own shores as self sustaining entities which are what good economic systems should be focused. Heck, we had no problems doing well with all the high union wages of the 50's-70's... We're even more productive now so there is the proof that you are being lied to...
Unfortunately too many Americans, such as many in this MW comment section have been propagandized by corporate controlled media and actually take what the right wingers and libertarians preach as gospel at face value. They are indeed the simpletons.
Last point to illustrate the simpleton’s thoughts. Free Trade, sounds nice, humans freely engaging with others all over the world. That's what right wingers take at face value. But in reality all that has happened is the HP in the USA relocates all the jobs for the rank and file to HP in China, therefore bypassing our own cultures value system regarding wages, the environment, etc.
Do you all get that, free trade is simply a way for companies to trade with themselves to get around US laws so that the shareholder class can reap the benefits of efficiency while sucking the profits and benefits of the collective creation that we all participated in producing.
What if we could all make the same as we do now working 8 hours a day working 3 hours a day while still producing just as much? Would you take that deal or would you keep working 8 plus hours a day so that the wealthy can continue to privatize the world and pay little to no tax on their accumulation? Well the news flash is that you've made that choice, the latter. And you don't like it much but instead of getting mad at the real villains you’re mad at the very people, the progressives, who actually want to liberate you just as Moses liberated the Jews. People, we are still fighting the same battles as we did 2K years ago and will continue to do so until you all put real human values and love of your fellow man as the non negotiable part of any system.
You are, we all are, in effect paying the price for putting up with allowing the propagandists of our day to fool us just as we've seen happen all throughout history.
We could create a world with no welfare, no class warfare, etc. if we allocated resources ethically. If someone wants to work hard and make millions, go for it. If someone else wants to take it easy or become an artist, go for it. I'm not saying pay everyone the same, I'm saying that there has to be limits on how much control (money) that goes to the top and also limits on how low someone can fall regardless of the moral hazard. If people decide to drop out then so be it, that should tell us about our real needs as human beings; if people are willing to live on an equivalent of 20K on the dole or by not working a traditional job than maybe our entire focus and value system is flawed to begin with. If half the population chooses that lifestyle than obviously that tells us that our lives as is are not happy with the current social structure and value system so instead of forcing more people to be unhappy we need to change the world...
Digressing once again, what is the point of automation, of progress, of efficiency if we all aren't allowed a commensurate slice of the pie? Most of you have a perspective based on how life was hundreds or thousands of years ago and the wealthy class still has you thinking like slaves so that they can keep most of the GDP growth all for themselves.
Maybe they're greedy, maybe they think that if people had too much freedom and free time society would crumble, etc. I don't know why we aren't benefiting as we should.
But all of you slaves out there should be at least asking the question and getting an honest answer because the idea that life is a struggle that you need to suffer for 40 years before living a real life, etc. is all a lie, a fallacy of design by a mindset that doesn't want you to actually be free.
In the natural world, especially with our minds and technology, life could be heaven on Earth right now if the systems of distribution were more ethically and intelligently structured. Our economic theories were all developed before the PC, before instant worldwide communications to monitor resources, labor, money, etc. Yet we hold on to all the cynicisms of government, corporations, etc. when most of the failures were not in the goals or the concepts but in our ability to execute them in real time. But that is no longer the case, now we can design systems to properly give us any result we want simply by having the will to do so and inviting all those who are like minded to the table.
Aucun commentaire:
Enregistrer un commentaire